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 Post subject: Apache Athletics & Skills?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:04 am 
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Hello, all! Just wondering if you guys have heard this stuff or had anything to add. From what I understand:

The Apaches could run all day. This is both in the sense of all the daylight hours (covering about 80 miles) & the full 24 hours. Don't know how long a full day of running would go or if they stopped to go to the bathroom (no food would take care of one problem, but I guess maybe a sponge situation could be used for the other thing- like if hiding for a long time), but I've heard of covering 300 miles over three days of running not being unheard of.

[Instead of hitting their kids as a general punishment, they'd have them run up increasing steep hills with water in their mouths- building their legs, stamina from not getting quite as much oxygen, and the good habit of not opening their mouths to breathe in the desert- since the moisture evaporating could be fatal in that environment (general self-control would also be built from this).]

The Apaches could climb straight up the face of a cliff. Not sure how much gear they'd have on them, but it's impressive that they'd be doing this WITHOUT any climbing gear (that I'm aware of- maybe ropes for pulling up supplies & any elderly/kids/pregnant women that might be among them).

They were good swimmers & would do something similar to cold water dousing (where you do a sauna or take a hot shower & then jump into a cold lake or pour a bucket of cold water over yourself). They'd build a fire next to a lake & have the kids swim out & come back to warm up, then go out again. They'd smash the surface ice, if needed (I guess they didn't really swim too far in that case, just jumping in & out). This was to strengthen the heart, both physically & in the sense of not being too skittish in the danger of a fight.

They could fire seven arrows up into the air before the first one landed & have most or all of them hit where they were aiming. Seems their bows were deliberately low draw-weight & maybe it's because it would build a lot of momentum from the landing (and a sharp edge doesn't generally NEED much force behind it to pierce).

They could make & maintain pretty much anything they used. Men & women both learned a basic level of self-sufficiency. In normal times, they tended to more or less have gender roles (the men tended to learn things about weapons & hunting, the women learned the home & family stuff). Even though the man usually wouldn't get caught dead doing women's work, a woman could make forays into more typically male skills- including her husband teaching her how to use weapons (both for guarding the camp & sometimes for coming with him on raids).

They could fight very well individually & as a group. Someone could have a hard time telling how many there were, since they'd walk in each other's footprints (sometimes walking quite a ways on their tip-toes, to leave less tracks). They'd ambush, then run away & get their enemy tired (from chasing them), then finish them off & leave. They'd, of course, be skilled at hiding & camouflage on top of navigation & signaling.

I've heard things about them hiding under thick "gramma grass" (or "gamma grass"), but I don't know if the burrowed under it like carpeting with their bare hands or if they ripped it up & covered themselves with it while laying down. Anyone know anything specific with that?

Extremely impressive stuff, in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Apache Athletics & Skills?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:30 pm 
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HMMMMM

Interested to know where you found that info as I have read most of Thrapp's books on Apacheria and none of tht sounds familiar.

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 Post subject: Re: Apache Athletics & Skills?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:49 pm 
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One of the books put out by the old American Heritage (??) "magazine" had some things about the Apaches in a chapter called "Geronamo Is Alive And Well In The Vietnamese Highlands" that made mention of their training , abilities and exploits.
Wolfeye....you might see if you can find a copy of that....great reading. Lost track of the copy I had many years ago.

Creek


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 Post subject: Re: Apache Athletics & Skills?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:07 am 
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45govt: To be honest, it's a bit of a compilation. Did you ever read anything by Eve Ball or Life Among the Apache by John C. Cremory? In the Days of Victorio is another one. Women of the Apache Nation was surprisingly informative about things, since it explains more of the whole to articulate what the woman did in the society. I definitely remember some of it was Life Among the Apache.

Scary Creek Wilson: I believe I found it on Amazon & will get it next order. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Apache Athletics & Skills?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:14 pm 
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Got the magazine in the other day & thought I might share some of the feats of the Apache that I read about. Admittedly, the article itself was a little disappointing, because I thought it was going to get into a lot of "how to" stuff & it didn't- but still, there were interesting things.

As far as running, it seems they could run 90 miles in thirteen hours! The could outrun a horse on the side of a hill (don't know exactly what that means, but whether it's speed or distance, it's still interesting). I do remember there being a story about an Apache striking a match for someone that was having trouble getting it lit on his bare heel.

Water was something they could go at least two days without, I'm assuming this includes while running. To carry water (on horses, at least), they'd clean out 30 feet or so of intestines from horses & fill those with water (I'd imagine it could be a mixture, for a little extra), then wrap those around the horse. A "water bandolier", basically.

As far as the cold water goes, it was said (in the article) that it was a manhood test. There was also melting snowballs in their armpits (an interesting idea, since there's snow around here now).

Another thing was shooting arrows at wasp nest, deliberately trying to get stung. This was done for building bravery.

One amazing story was an Apache woman that got captured & sold into slavery in Mexico that escaped & walked across 1000 miles of various enemy territories to get back home. No weapons, no provisions, no maps. Not all of this sort of thing was done by the braves!


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 Post subject: Re: Apache Athletics & Skills?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:11 pm 
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That sounds like the article Wolfeye. I do not remember the particulars, but the Mangus Colorado raids were amazing...time... distance covered...etc


Creek


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 Post subject: Re: Apache Athletics & Skills?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:45 am 
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Yeah, right? I was running around (somewhat literally) the other day & was having a problem doing... well, let's not say what fraction.

People think of a 100-mile ride as something that's no big thing, but there's simply sitting up for that long on top of the muscular compensation & whatever weather conditions.


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 Post subject: Re: Apache Athletics & Skills?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:44 pm 
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One might ask...."Which Apaches"? We lived in Southern Colorado and near four reservations...the Jicarilla, Southern Ute and Ute Mountain Utes and Navajo. Their high school cross country teams would compete with various "non-reservation" towns and their "mixed race" teams. The overriding conclusion was that all the various Indian teams, whether Jicarilla Apache, Southern Ute, Ute Mountain Utes and Navajos, their obvious genetic disposition towards long distant running was more than obvious often crushing the non Indian teams.

I believe there are a number of similar historical accounts of Woodland Indians with the same long distance prowess. I suspect hundreds/thousands of years without the aid of horses, genetically improved most all indigenous peoples to cross country travel by foot. Most modern day folks would consider a 100 mile horse trip arduous at best. However there are many modern backpackers who make the Divide Trail from Mexico to Canada, annually. However running the distance with little water and food, depending on bare minimum is exclusively reserved to native Americans, Africans and....of course the Greeks! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Apache Athletics & Skills?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:39 pm 
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Mule Man: Might be true. I think they take this sort of thing more seriously- like stone lifting or caber tossing in Scotland.

Certainly they seem to have a different viewpoint of these sorts of things. Most of the white people I've known have almost skeeved physical abilities & also tended to think of activity as degenerative. Not that they CAN be if you do things with bad form or get overuse injuries or something like that- like it was a loss or a damage. I know that there's a pervasive mentality of "prowess equals predatory in the "bad guy" sense of the word." Not always, but it's there.

There's actually a bit of history to that. Not that you ALWAYS or ONLY see this in Christianity, but all that (at least in Western culture) comes from all the sheep & lamb references in the Bible- the people started looking at themselves literally like "prey animals" & started looking at the "predator animals" in the wilderness as enemies, then started attacking them (which is massively "out of character" AND ecologically unsound, plus the general unfairness of it). They did the same basic thing with people, too. Anyone with any "teeth/claws/an edge/survivability/etc..." was seen in a "bad guy" light & was presented negatively. Then people are trying to show off how harmless they are & no one knows when that's real or when it's a ploy to facilitate harm (a "sheep with snake's fangs"). This would make people a bit paranoid from not knowing what they're dealing with & probably having a sabotaged ability to circumvent attacks, so things would "go off" from that fear finally boiling over. Outsourcing that combative subject to people that likely have that same understanding of things, but DON'T have an issue with violence is not a smart idea, either. Kind of like having an enemy for a leader.

I definitely think that these things, if they're even passed along at all, can be done after there's a lack (like if white people started running a lot, it might get build up & a predisposition to getting good at it might get passed along). I definitely remember hearing about general health being somewhat related to the food intake of the parents & that if things are adjusted at some point along the "road of descendancy," things turn around.


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